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保卫我的现代化生活〡鉴证大舞台兼搬史专用频道 Keyborad politics dump | Shit posting and political discussions
Between 2025/10/26 1:58 and 2025/10/26 4:49
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milspec 2025/10/26 1:59
hey guys if you want to continue the conversation, I don't mind... is there anything you would like to ask me in particular?
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:00
第三段争论要开始了吗
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:00
The country wasnt renamed from "ROC" to "ROC (Taiwan)". The country's formal name is ROC and its common name is Taiwan.
2:01
Regarding British colonisation of Australia, I have already acknowledged that it was an injustice.
2:02
I don't think Mao's proclamation of the PRC was illegal. In fact, I think it's the right of the mainland people to self determination and independencce from the ROC.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:02
朋友，现在是北京时间2：00am应该不会有太多人
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琴海奶油
反正他说的PRC的c和ROC的c不是同一个c
milspec 2025/10/26 2:06
Sorry, I didn't say that the C in ROC and the C in PRC is not the same C. I said that both Cs in PRC and ROC are 中华. Which is a different word to 中国.
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:11
I don't really care about Chinese politics. Why can't you make those banners in Beijing look nicer and less of a mess. but well
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:11
我同意
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:11
Someone was saying that "because ROC contains a "China" therefore it is China". So I was pointing out that while the english word is the same (China), these are actually different words in the original Chinese. In the original Chinese that sentence becomes ""because ROC contains a "中华" therefore it is 中国" - which doesn't have the same logic. (edited)
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Violin^ 琴
I don't really care about Chinese politics. Why can't you make those banners in Beijing look nicer and less of a mess. but well
milspec 2025/10/26 2:12
They're not mine.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:12
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milspec
They're not mine.
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:12
但是你在维护
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琴海奶油
Click to see attachment 🖼️
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:13
这个男人非常丑
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:13
So? It is not my creative artwork. What right do I have to make changes to other peoples work?
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milspec
Someone was saying that "because ROC contains a "China" therefore it is China". So I was pointing out that while the english word is the same (China), these are actually different words in the original Chinese. In the original Chinese that sentence becomes ""because ROC contains a "中华" therefore it is 中国" - which doesn't have the same logic. (edited)
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:14
中国可以表达的含义很多，这是很难翻译的
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:16
我tm都无语了，你的那些乱七八糟的朋友整这些的目的就是为了丑而不是什么狗屎 freedom 或者 against politics
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:17
画这种都好过写标语 (edited)
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Violin^ 琴
我tm都无语了，你的那些乱七八糟的朋友整这些的目的就是为了丑而不是什么狗屎 freedom 或者 against politics
milspec 2025/10/26 2:17
Complain to them
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琴海奶油
中国可以表达的含义很多，这是很难翻译的
milspec 2025/10/26 2:19
I agree.
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:21
没什么好多说的，讲道理吧，你也知道的真正 care 那些画的人，只有你一个
2:21
既然你不听那只能游戏里见了
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:21
如果是against politics我认为画一个可爱维尼然后旁边画一个跳跳虎就可以表达，而不是引起别人反感
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WHK
@milspec This is China during the Beiyang government period, and it is also the ROC period.At that time, everyone recognized China as a country, but there were dozens of governments
milspec 2025/10/26 2:23
Sorry I missed this message. It was a busy period in the chat. The Beiyang period was prior to the establishment of international law that developed after the 1933 Montevideo Convention.
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Violin^ 琴
没什么好多说的，讲道理吧，你也知道的真正 care 那些画的人，只有你一个
milspec 2025/10/26 2:24
No actually I'm not the only one. The constitiution sign was there a long time before they asked me to help.
2:25
It was created by someone else, then other people liked it and helped maintain it. I simply joined in afterwards. Dont attribute the design to me.
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milspec
Sorry I missed this message. It was a busy period in the chat. The Beiyang period was prior to the establishment of international law that developed after the 1933 Montevideo Convention.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:25
Stop clinging to so-called international law... International law is merely symbolic and does not mean it can be used to judge the reality of all countries in the world.
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WHK
Stop clinging to so-called international law... International law is merely symbolic and does not mean it can be used to judge the reality of all countries in the world.
milspec 2025/10/26 2:26
Its not symbolic at all. It was ratified by many countries and has become customary international law (which mean that it is applied to all countries irrespective of signatory status).
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琴海奶油
Click to see attachment 🖼️
WHK 2025/10/26 2:26
Other symbols can be considered political symbols, but this man is just a spoof, and we don't like the design
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milspec
Its not symbolic at all. It was ratified by many countries and has become customary international law (which mean that it is applied to all countries irrespective of signatory status).
WHK 2025/10/26 2:27
It's so childish... ...you don't seem to understand what we're saying today
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:27
并没有悬挂很久
2:27
“宪政”这个早已经消失
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:28
I think I understand. I just disagree. Your reasoning is based on feelings of Chinese people. My reasoning is based on law and historical facts.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:28
甚至这块地方已经产生了其他的艺术作品
2:28
但是你们却直接选择覆盖
2:28
然后“勿忘八九六四”是你们之后才加上的
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:28
What? I didnt cover other art lol.
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milspec
Its not symbolic at all. It was ratified by many countries and has become customary international law (which mean that it is applied to all countries irrespective of signatory status).
WHK 2025/10/26 2:29
International law serves as a kind of convention but lacks enforceable power.
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 2:29
一些西方朋友希望以西方朋友的“国际法”来凌驾于中国人民的感受。 (edited)
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milspec
It was created by someone else, then other people liked it and helped maintain it. I simply joined in afterwards. Dont attribute the design to me.
Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:29
他们喜欢就有鬼了。他们喜欢的不是那个banner，而是把北京那块地整的尽可能丑 他们找你说喜欢只是借口可以拉你入伙。 作画的那几个人中不少每天都把像素花费在摧毁北京正常画作之上。 当然咯，我觉得你的想法很可能也是把北京弄得尽可能丑，所以我觉得我说啥你都未必听
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WHK
International law serves as a kind of convention but lacks enforceable power.
milspec 2025/10/26 2:30
It is difficult to enforce, but that doesn't mean breaking international law has no consequences.
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milspec
I think I understand. I just disagree. Your reasoning is based on feelings of Chinese people. My reasoning is based on law and historical facts.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:31
Wrong, you don't understand.You naively believe that international law is a real law, completely unaware that in international society, international law is merely a non-binding symbolic convention. Every country claims to abide by international law, but that’s just for show. When it comes to real conflicts of interest, no one cares about international law. Anyone who has taken a high school history class or paid attention to the news would understand this.
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乌山白水一过客
一些西方朋友希望以西方朋友的“国际法”来凌驾于中国人民的感受。 (edited)
milspec 2025/10/26 2:31
Actually international law was written by the whole international community - not just the West.
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milspec
Actually international law was written by the whole international community - not just the West.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:31
Because you're a Westerner, so you think that's what you think
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milspec
What? I didnt cover other art lol.
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:31
我应该有图片，但是我的电脑不在身边
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 2:31
而中国人民的感受，在台湾这一部分以及大陆的这一部分，在现代社会如果以国际法允许的方式完成统一，是否能够被国际法所接受？ (edited)
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:31
如果你是海外华人，很清楚自己在做什么，那一切都好 如果你是外国厌华人士，那也一切都好 如果都不是，那你早应该反思一下你的那些朋友是不是有问题了
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Violin^ 琴
他们喜欢就有鬼了。他们喜欢的不是那个banner，而是把北京那块地整的尽可能丑 他们找你说喜欢只是借口可以拉你入伙。 作画的那几个人中不少每天都把像素花费在摧毁北京正常画作之上。 当然咯，我觉得你的想法很可能也是把北京弄得尽可能丑，所以我觉得我说啥你都未必听
milspec 2025/10/26 2:32
I actually want to make Beijing nice looking. I just respect other people's work enough to not have the arrogance to change it.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:32
那你觉得漂亮吗
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 2:32
就比如你之前应该提到过比如在现代社会两个国家或者一个地区加入一个国家，是否合乎国际法？
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milspec
I actually want to make Beijing nice looking. I just respect other people's work enough to not have the arrogance to change it.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:32
But we think it's very ugly, especially the man's head
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:32
因为他们根本就不是民主主义者，他们就是单纯的破坏者
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WHK
But we think it's very ugly, especially the man's head
WHK 2025/10/26 2:33
We don't care about political slogans, but spoofs don't
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:33
如果一个作品50%的时间都在遭受破坏那你认为喜欢他的人有多少
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:33
民主主义者只是借口，在中国呆过的住过的一眼就能看出来
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WHK
Because you're a Westerner, so you think that's what you think
milspec 2025/10/26 2:33
Lol you don't think that China has contributed to international law? Do you know that China is on the UN Security council as a permanent member? That means that it has veto power.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:35
维尼建好到现在我甚至没看见过有破坏的
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WHK
Wrong, you don't understand.You naively believe that international law is a real law, completely unaware that in international society, international law is merely a non-binding symbolic convention. Every country claims to abide by international law, but that’s just for show. When it comes to real conflicts of interest, no one cares about international law. Anyone who has taken a high school history class or paid attention to the news would understand this.
milspec 2025/10/26 2:35
Sure, enforcement is limited. But if international law were just for show, no one would care about recognition, sanctions, or UN votes. The fact that governments invest so much in justifying their actions under it means it’s not “fake law” — it’s weak law, but still law.
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milspec
Lol you don't think that China has contributed to international law? Do you know that China is on the UN Security council as a permanent member? That means that it has veto power.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:35
What does China being a permanent member of the UN Security Council have to do with international law? Moreover, permanent members often do things that violate international law. Russia repeatedly rejects ceasefire proposals for Ukraine, and the U.S. consistently uses its veto power to block aid from entering Gaza... This is completely inconsistent with international law... The United Nations is the United Nations of major powers, not some so-called embodiment of international law.
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:36
https://discord.com/channels/1406140432752054432/1407899873398755468 ↑ I hope none of your friends are linked above as griefers. anyways I have some other game to play so I'll leave.
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milspec
Sure, enforcement is limited. But if international law were just for show, no one would care about recognition, sanctions, or UN votes. The fact that governments invest so much in justifying their actions under it means it’s not “fake law” — it’s weak law, but still law.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:36
Yes, because international people can't tear their faces apart. But behind the scenes, everyone knows exactly what's going on
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琴海奶油
我应该有图片，但是我的电脑不在身边
milspec 2025/10/26 2:36
haha ok, when you go back to your computer show me how I covered other peoples art. Whenever I put new art down, I actually very carefully relocate existing art in that space.
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乌山白水一过客
而中国人民的感受，在台湾这一部分以及大陆的这一部分，在现代社会如果以国际法允许的方式完成统一，是否能够被国际法所接受？ (edited)
milspec 2025/10/26 2:37
If both parties consent freely to unify then theres no problem.
🫡 1
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 2:38
我现在也要继续玩wplace了，稍后。 (edited)
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milspec
The country wasnt renamed from "ROC" to "ROC (Taiwan)". The country's formal name is ROC and its common name is Taiwan.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 2:38
mofa.gov.tw
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WHK
But we think it's very ugly, especially the man's head
milspec 2025/10/26 2:39
I think John Xina is ugly too... but funny. Hahahha... anyway I haven't touched Xina for about a month.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:40
话说那个存档网站叫什么名字来着
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milspec
Sorry, I didn't say that the C in ROC and the C in PRC is not the same C. I said that both Cs in PRC and ROC are 中华. Which is a different word to 中国.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 2:40
In fact, during the Mainland period of the Republic of China, the Republic of China was also customarily referred to as “中国”
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琴海奶油
如果一个作品50%的时间都在遭受破坏那你认为喜欢他的人有多少
milspec 2025/10/26 2:40
Actually I like it when people damage John Xina. I don't like John Xina, he is a CCP bootlicker.
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milspec
I think John Xina is ugly too... but funny. Hahahha... anyway I haven't touched Xina for about a month.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:41
Yes, but we're offended, we've destroyed it countless times, and it's constantly being restored.
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Kuyuki Toshira
In fact, during the Mainland period of the Republic of China, the Republic of China was also customarily referred to as “中国”
milspec 2025/10/26 2:41
Yep. During that period the ROC had the common name 中国. But today that common name has been transferred to the PRC.
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WHK
Yes, but we're offended, we've destroyed it countless times, and it's constantly being restored.
milspec 2025/10/26 2:42
I told you already, I haven't touched him in a month. Don't blame me.
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WHK
Yes, but we're offended, we've destroyed it countless times, and it's constantly being restored.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:42
Other political slogans are acceptable to us, but that person is a complete spoof, and we don't like it
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:42
hi guys lol
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milspec
I told you already, I haven't touched him in a month. Don't blame me.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:42
So please tell those who have painted it, and tell them not to defend it anymore. Just say we said it
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琴海奶油
话说那个存档网站叫什么名字来着
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:42
如果你有的话可以看看这个网站
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琴海奶油
话说那个存档网站叫什么名字来着
jeon 2025/10/26 2:42
等等
2:42
https://wplace.samuelscheit.com (edited)
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:43
“宪政”在9月初就已经被摧毁了
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WHK
What does China being a permanent member of the UN Security Council have to do with international law? Moreover, permanent members often do things that violate international law. Russia repeatedly rejects ceasefire proposals for Ukraine, and the U.S. consistently uses its veto power to block aid from entering Gaza... This is completely inconsistent with international law... The United Nations is the United Nations of major powers, not some so-called embodiment of international law.
milspec 2025/10/26 2:43
Im not saying the permanent members are perfect. I'm saying that China has a big say in international law and conventions. Its not just a western concept.
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milspec
Yep. During that period the ROC had the common name 中国. But today that common name has been transferred to the PRC.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 2:43
这实际上是关于中国代表权的问题 我不知道你明不明白一国两府的概念
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:43
chat what are we arguing about
2:43
can i join
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jeon
chat what are we arguing about
Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:44
你进吧，我正在搓手游
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:44
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Violin^ 琴
你进吧，我正在搓手游
jeon 2025/10/26 2:44
收到o/
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WHK
So please tell those who have painted it, and tell them not to defend it anymore. Just say we said it
milspec 2025/10/26 2:44
I don't know who it is. You go find them. This is not my problem.
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milspec
Im not saying the permanent members are perfect. I'm saying that China has a big say in international law and conventions. Its not just a western concept.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:44
Yes. But international law was born in the West, and China needs to uphold it in order to integrate into the world. In fact, we cannot make concessions on issues that involve China's core interests. Every country is the same
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Kuyuki Toshira
这实际上是关于中国代表权的问题 我不知道你明不明白一国两府的概念
milspec 2025/10/26 2:44
We already voted above that the PRC is a country. And also the ROC was a country.
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milspec
Click to see original message
milspec 2025/10/26 2:45
here
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milspec
Click to see original message
jeon 2025/10/26 2:45
a country buddy
2:46
ok so i just scrolled up
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:46
反正台湾是属于我们荷兰的，你别乱插手
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:46
you are the most redditor cornball ever bro
2:46
you are glazing us too much bro
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:46
台湾问题是中国人自己的问题，是中华民族的问题，不应该由外人来管
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WHK
Yes. But international law was born in the West, and China needs to uphold it in order to integrate into the world. In fact, we cannot make concessions on issues that involve China's core interests. Every country is the same
milspec 2025/10/26 2:46
Lmao, international law is constantly being evolved with everyone involved. Look at the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea. China is a signatory. The US is not a signatory. This proves that international law is not just a construct of the west.
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:46
get a job 😂
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jeon
a country buddy
milspec 2025/10/26 2:47
agreed
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 2:47
宣布独立也并不是Mao做的事 他只是一个代表人物 筹备成立新政府的时候对于国号有过广泛的民主讨论 很多人 其实包括部分中华民国建国元老 已经对中华民国这个国号有很大意见 他们更希望换个名字 这个名字已经被蒋介石政权玩臭了 我不知道你是否了解北伐战争 这也是一场中国内战 中华民国北洋政府对战国民政府 北伐成功后 中华民国的国旗 国徽 宪法全部换成了国民政府的 离我们最近的中国内战 1945-1949 实际上是Mao对蒋介石政权做了同样的事情 只不过 这次 他们选择了连国名一起换
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milspec
agreed
jeon 2025/10/26 2:47
bro do you think guangxi should be independent
2:47
im just sayin
2:47
streets saying youre thinking all autonomous regions should be independent
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:48
从历史上来说，蒋介石确实是窃取了孙中山的革命成果
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琴海奶油
Click to see attachment 🖼️
milspec 2025/10/26 2:48
Are you trying to show me the creation of the constitutionalism sign? That wasn't created by me.
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琴海奶油
从历史上来说，蒋介石确实是窃取了孙中山的革命成果
jeon 2025/10/26 2:48
对的
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琴海奶油
台湾问题是中国人自己的问题，是中华民族的问题，不应该由外人来管
milspec 2025/10/26 2:49
Not at all. This is CCP rhetoric. If the PRC and ROC are indeed countries, then it is a matter between two countries and therefore subject to international law. The same law that says annexation of one country by another is illegal. This then becomes a matter that concerns the global community because everyone has a stake in maintaining international law.
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milspec
Lmao, international law is constantly being evolved with everyone involved. Look at the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea. China is a signatory. The US is not a signatory. This proves that international law is not just a construct of the west.
WHK 2025/10/26 2:49
But in reality, few countries actually comply. Many countries signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but several still illegally possess nuclear weapons, and the international community can do nothing about it.
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milspec
Not at all. This is CCP rhetoric. If the PRC and ROC are indeed countries, then it is a matter between two countries and therefore subject to international law. The same law that says annexation of one country by another is illegal. This then becomes a matter that concerns the global community because everyone has a stake in maintaining international law.
jeon 2025/10/26 2:49
are we for real bro
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Kuyuki Toshira
宣布独立也并不是Mao做的事 他只是一个代表人物 筹备成立新政府的时候对于国号有过广泛的民主讨论 很多人 其实包括部分中华民国建国元老 已经对中华民国这个国号有很大意见 他们更希望换个名字 这个名字已经被蒋介石政权玩臭了 我不知道你是否了解北伐战争 这也是一场中国内战 中华民国北洋政府对战国民政府 北伐成功后 中华民国的国旗 国徽 宪法全部换成了国民政府的 离我们最近的中国内战 1945-1949 实际上是Mao对蒋介石政权做了同样的事情 只不过 这次 他们选择了连国名一起换
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 2:50
唯一不同的是 蒋介石政权在台湾存活下来了 而北洋政府投降于国民政府 从此消失了
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Kuyuki Toshira
宣布独立也并不是Mao做的事 他只是一个代表人物 筹备成立新政府的时候对于国号有过广泛的民主讨论 很多人 其实包括部分中华民国建国元老 已经对中华民国这个国号有很大意见 他们更希望换个名字 这个名字已经被蒋介石政权玩臭了 我不知道你是否了解北伐战争 这也是一场中国内战 中华民国北洋政府对战国民政府 北伐成功后 中华民国的国旗 国徽 宪法全部换成了国民政府的 离我们最近的中国内战 1945-1949 实际上是Mao对蒋介石政权做了同样的事情 只不过 这次 他们选择了连国名一起换
WHK 2025/10/26 2:50
@milspec Read these
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:50
the taiwanese are majority han and we are majority han as well
2:50
let us resolve this on our own bro 😂
2:50
bffr
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jeon
the taiwanese are majority han and we are majority han as well
WHK 2025/10/26 2:51
没用的，这个我和他之前辩论过，他认为汉族再多也没有意义 而且他认为明朝也只控制了台湾的一小部分，不能算是控制台湾
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:51
we aint need yo help broski
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Kuyuki Toshira
宣布独立也并不是Mao做的事 他只是一个代表人物 筹备成立新政府的时候对于国号有过广泛的民主讨论 很多人 其实包括部分中华民国建国元老 已经对中华民国这个国号有很大意见 他们更希望换个名字 这个名字已经被蒋介石政权玩臭了 我不知道你是否了解北伐战争 这也是一场中国内战 中华民国北洋政府对战国民政府 北伐成功后 中华民国的国旗 国徽 宪法全部换成了国民政府的 离我们最近的中国内战 1945-1949 实际上是Mao对蒋介石政权做了同样的事情 只不过 这次 他们选择了连国名一起换
milspec 2025/10/26 2:51
If they wanted to change the name, they should have just changed the name. Like Turkey changed the name to Turkiye. No need for a proclamation of a new country. Instead Mao's proclamation created a new country. That's why the birthday of the PRC is on that day.
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WHK
没用的，这个我和他之前辩论过，他认为汉族再多也没有意义 而且他认为明朝也只控制了台湾的一小部分，不能算是控制台湾
jeon 2025/10/26 2:51
那很硬颈了
2:52
im codeswitching like crazy rn
2:52
on some nonchalant shi
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jeon
那很硬颈了
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:52
我鼓他包翻译不出来
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Kuyuki Toshira
唯一不同的是 蒋介石政权在台湾存活下来了 而北洋政府投降于国民政府 从此消失了
milspec 2025/10/26 2:52
yes, and this is the key difference; survival of the ROC at the time of the PRC proclamation means that the proclamation is a declaration of secession, not a declaration of succession.
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milspec
yes, and this is the key difference; survival of the ROC at the time of the PRC proclamation means that the proclamation is a declaration of secession, not a declaration of succession.
jeon 2025/10/26 2:53
jesus bro
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:53
独树鱼我们的加密通话
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jeon
the taiwanese are majority han and we are majority han as well
milspec 2025/10/26 2:53
Yeah nah. Just because two countries share the same ethnicity doesn't mean that one gets to invade the other bro
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milspec
Yeah nah. Just because two countries share the same ethnicity doesn't mean that one gets to invade the other bro
jeon 2025/10/26 2:53
buddy we ARE the same country
2:53
republic of china still has china in it
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:54
it doesn't have 中国 in it
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:54
中华民国
2:54
it still has 中华ｂｒｏ
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:54
中华 is not 中国
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:54
then what do you say about 中华人民共和国
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milspec
中华 is not 中国
WHK 2025/10/26 2:54
？？？？？？？？
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:54
台湾：中华民国
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:54
is the prc not china now
2:54
lmao
2:54
gaahahaha
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:54
中国：中华人民共和国
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 2:54
ok，fine，who is 中国？ (edited)
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jeon
is the prc not china now
milspec 2025/10/26 2:54
it is, but not because of its name
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乌山白水一过客
ok，fine，who is 中国？ (edited)
jeon 2025/10/26 2:55
蒙古x
2:55
中华正统在乌兰巴托
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milspec
it is, but not because of its name
jeon 2025/10/26 2:55
ok then what decides who is china and who aint
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:55
中华正统早在第一次民族融合时期就消失殆尽了
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:55
这人不是纯坏就是纯蠢 你还和他说啥，你说服我都不可能说服他
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琴海奶油
中华正统早在第一次民族融合时期就消失殆尽了
WHK 2025/10/26 2:56
应该说是华夏正统
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:56
PRC has the common name 中国 ROC has the common name 台湾 ROK has the common name South Korea DPRK has the common name North Korea
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:56
如果要追溯中华正统只有夏朝
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milspec
PRC has the common name 中国 ROC has the common name 台湾 ROK has the common name South Korea DPRK has the common name North Korea
jeon 2025/10/26 2:56
Its just a name bro
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jeon
Its just a name bro
milspec 2025/10/26 2:56
yeah
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milspec
yeah
jeon 2025/10/26 2:56
so does THAT decide who is china
2:56
https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849
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milspec
PRC has the common name 中国 ROC has the common name 台湾 ROK has the common name South Korea DPRK has the common name North Korea
WHK 2025/10/26 2:56
But there are still many people in Taiwan who think that ROC is also China.
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jeon 2025/10/26 2:56
我为啥不能发动图
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:57
你是会员么
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Violin^ 琴
这人不是纯坏就是纯蠢 你还和他说啥，你说服我都不可能说服他
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:57
emoji_48
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milspec 2025/10/26 2:57
you're the one trying to use the name to justify which is china and which isn't. im the one saying the name is irrelevant because 中华 is not 中国
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milspec
you're the one trying to use the name to justify which is china and which isn't. im the one saying the name is irrelevant because 中华 is not 中国
jeon 2025/10/26 2:57
yo get into vc like rn
2:57
im tryna see smth
2:57
来语音频道
2:57
看我操作
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 2:57
还有语音对抗 (edited)
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milspec
you're the one trying to use the name to justify which is china and which isn't. im the one saying the name is irrelevant because 中华 is not 中国
Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:57
我真无语
2:57
我英语不好我就不去了
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WHK
But there are still many people in Taiwan who think that ROC is also China.
milspec 2025/10/26 2:57
Very few, but thats ok
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Violin^ 琴
我英语不好我就不去了
jeon 2025/10/26 2:58
没事我看他来不来
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:58
我觉得未必 very few
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牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 2:58
https://discord.com/channels/1406140432752054432/1406140433574400116
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Violin^ 琴
我觉得未必 very few
jeon 2025/10/26 2:58
大多数都是支持status quo 的
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 2:58
南部和大陆有亲家的蛮多的
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牢大（半退）
https://discord.com/channels/1406140432752054432/1406140433574400116
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 2:58
sir this way
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milspec
Very few, but thats ok
jeon 2025/10/26 2:59
join vc
2:59
pussy
2:59
https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-laughing-don%27t-laugh-don%27tlaugh-ishowspeed-laughing-gif-15284676702826611657
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milspec
you're the one trying to use the name to justify which is china and which isn't. im the one saying the name is irrelevant because 中华 is not 中国
milspec 2025/10/26 3:00
i mean im still waiting on a response to this
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milspec
i mean im still waiting on a response to this
jeon 2025/10/26 3:00
ill debate u in vc lmao
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牢大（半退）
sir this way
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:00
@milspec
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milspec 2025/10/26 3:00
no thanks. i prefer to type
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milspec
no thanks. i prefer to type
jeon 2025/10/26 3:00
pussy
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milspec 2025/10/26 3:01
shrug, I think better this way
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:01
怕不是一进vc就是暴露口音
3:01
你其实可以不说的话单纯听
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milspec
shrug, I think better this way
jeon 2025/10/26 3:01
come in broooooooo
3:01
😂
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:01
你在怕什么
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WHK 2025/10/26 3:01
There is no Republic of Taiwan in the world
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:02
那么不坦荡，是知道自己做亏心事还是咋的
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Violin^ 琴
那么不坦荡，是知道自己做亏心事还是咋的
jeon 2025/10/26 3:02
怂了
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milspec
you're the one trying to use the name to justify which is china and which isn't. im the one saying the name is irrelevant because 中华 is not 中国
milspec 2025/10/26 3:02
still waiting
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milspec
still waiting
jeon 2025/10/26 3:02
就是不肯进来对不对
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:03
@milspec China's modern history is complex although I may have different opinions from the people here, there are some problems with your views
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:03
chud
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:03
他的view就没一个对的
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Υδρの昀
@milspec China's modern history is complex although I may have different opinions from the people here, there are some problems with your views
milspec 2025/10/26 3:03
Happy to discuss these problems
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Violin^ 琴
他的view就没一个对的
Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:04
我可能知道他想講啥，但感覺他就是不夠懂近代史
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:04
如果你认为粉红是被洗脑的，那这里不只是粉红，还有海外移民
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琴海奶油
如果你认为粉红是被洗脑的，那这里不只是粉红，还有海外移民
jeon 2025/10/26 3:04
你好
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:04
他觉得有人维护标语，那些人就是热爱自由，是他的同志
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milspec
you're the one trying to use the name to justify which is china and which isn't. im the one saying the name is irrelevant because 中华 is not 中国
milspec 2025/10/26 3:04
yawn
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:04
我在加拿大生活了6年，彻底西化了，不过我还是支持两岸统一
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:05
我在荷兰生活了6年
3:05
也彻底西化了
3:05
但我支持核平大陆
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:05
我感觉我的观点国内很多人会觉得我是白左
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:05
也支持核平台湾
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:05
emoji_47
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Violin^ 琴
也支持核平台湾
jeon 2025/10/26 3:05
等价交换法则
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:05
只能说东亚炸了我很爽
❤️ 1
XJP666 1
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milspec 2025/10/26 3:06
I mean all I am seeing is a bunch of people in a tailspin because they're unable to present a cohesive argument against my position.
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jeon
我感觉我的观点国内很多人会觉得我是白左
WHK 2025/10/26 3:06
结果感觉这个人比你更过
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:07
台湾一堆有勇无谋的有什么资格喊独，大陆一堆奴性中的，活一辈子线下见过白皮黑皮的都不多
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:08
他认为中国是个通名 台湾也是个通名 所以认为PRC是中国 ROC是台湾 但实际上ROC=台湾也不过近40年的事 在此之前两边都认为自己是中国 只能说角度清奇了 但其实这没啥意义 PRC/ROC=中国就像United States of America=America 一样 没有任何意义 依旧是中国代表权的争夺
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:08
两坨垃圾粪坑地方，一想到我还要贴着那些破地的标签。
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milspec
I mean all I am seeing is a bunch of people in a tailspin because they're unable to present a cohesive argument against my position.
jeon 2025/10/26 3:08
W speed ❤️‍🩹
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琴海奶油
如果你认为粉红是被洗脑的，那这里不只是粉红，还有海外移民
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:08
差点忘了这一茬了
3:08
这里不仅仅只有粉红
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:08
我支持兩國論的，但我覺得台灣沒那實力獨自抵禦中共
👍 1
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milspec 2025/10/26 3:08
Taiwan doesn't need to call for independence. It's just the common name for the ROC and the ROC has been independent since 1912. The fact that a chunk of it separated to form the PRC in 1949 doesn't change the statehood status of the ROC.
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Υδρの昀
我支持兩國論的，但我覺得台灣沒那實力獨自抵禦中共
jeon 2025/10/26 3:08
没错的，，
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milspec
Taiwan doesn't need to call for independence. It's just the common name for the ROC and the ROC has been independent since 1912. The fact that a chunk of it separated to form the PRC in 1949 doesn't change the statehood status of the ROC.
jeon 2025/10/26 3:09
OUR BRAINS are SHRINKING
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:09
我就是那么一坨垃圾罕见，我都看不管首都写标语的，那坨人连我都不如
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:09
Image attachment
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Violin^ 琴 2025/10/26 3:09
你自己想想，我吃饭去
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:09
那现在一些鼓吹地位未定论的朋友正在做的可能正是你说的“无需呼吁”的事，朋友。 (edited)
👍 1
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jeon
OUR BRAINS are SHRINKING
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:09
人身攻击没必要
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:09
你们非要跟这个傻逼争吗
3:09
不是有管理员？
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Υδρの昀
我支持兩國論的，但我覺得台灣沒那實力獨自抵禦中共
milspec 2025/10/26 3:09
Agree
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:09
把他禁言直接踢出去
3:09
💯
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jeon
把他禁言直接踢出去
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:10
他也有他发表自己言论的权力啦……
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:10
6767676767
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:10
我覺得這裡是垃圾桶應該沒關係
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Kuyuki Toshira
他认为中国是个通名 台湾也是个通名 所以认为PRC是中国 ROC是台湾 但实际上ROC=台湾也不过近40年的事 在此之前两边都认为自己是中国 只能说角度清奇了 但其实这没啥意义 PRC/ROC=中国就像United States of America=America 一样 没有任何意义 依旧是中国代表权的争夺
milspec 2025/10/26 3:10
Yes, the common names changed in the last 40 years.
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Kuyuki Toshira
他也有他发表自己言论的权力啦……
jeon 2025/10/26 3:10
就一个纯闹事的
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:10
都在垃圾桶这个频道了 (edited)
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jeon
把他禁言直接踢出去
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:10
都垃圾桶了
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Kuyuki Toshira
人身攻击没必要
milspec 2025/10/26 3:10
Thank you
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:10
能有啥都不奇怪
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:11
留着吧
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:11
我回去填色了
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牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:11
👏 3
bluewoah 1
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:11
不喜争
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牢大（半退）
Click to see original message
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:12
这两天热闹哈
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milspec
I mean all I am seeing is a bunch of people in a tailspin because they're unable to present a cohesive argument against my position.
乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:12
我始终没有变化我的观点，但是由于你接触的是很多用户，所以我们并没有合成一个共识，反过来说其实这种混乱正是群组里的用户独立思考的结果，给你提供了多方的见解，而不是出于某些唯一的特定环境洗脑产生的批量产物。 (edited)
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Kuyuki Toshira
他认为中国是个通名 台湾也是个通名 所以认为PRC是中国 ROC是台湾 但实际上ROC=台湾也不过近40年的事 在此之前两边都认为自己是中国 只能说角度清奇了 但其实这没啥意义 PRC/ROC=中国就像United States of America=America 一样 没有任何意义 依旧是中国代表权的争夺
milspec 2025/10/26 3:13
For me, I would say that the common name change happened when the UN passed UN Resolution 2758 in 1971. Thats when the PRC took the "China" seat in the UN, so for me thats when the PRC adopted the common name China
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乌山白水一过客
我始终没有变化我的观点，但是由于你接触的是很多用户，所以我们并没有合成一个共识，反过来说其实这种混乱正是群组里的用户独立思考的结果，给你提供了多方的见解，而不是出于某些唯一的特定环境洗脑产生的批量产物。 (edited)
milspec 2025/10/26 3:14
This is fair
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:14
我一直以為沒多少人知道2758號決議
👍 1
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:14
大陆在历史教科书里确实会强调这份决议，包括蒋廷黻先生愤而离席的段落。
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牢大（半退）
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milspec 2025/10/26 3:14
rising almost as fast as Taiwan's GDP
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:14
emoji_13
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:15
six seveennn
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:15
蒋先生是优秀的学者。
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乌山白水一过客
大陆在历史教科书里确实会强调这份决议，包括蒋廷黻先生愤而离席的段落。
Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:15
台灣年輕一代知道的人好像不多，我是歷史老師有提到才知道
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milspec 2025/10/26 3:16
I think its important to learn about
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milspec
Yes, the common names changed in the last 40 years.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:19
但就是因为台湾 或者说中华民国 将台湾作为通名用向全世界 这会导致 或者说已经导致很多台湾年轻人认Taiwan而不认China 即便ROC国名里面依旧有China 这依旧很容易或者已经造成很多人希望或者已经认为台湾独立 并且因此他们不需要再宣布 等 但我必须要指出的是 中华民国和中华人民共和国的宪法内都有整个中国疆域（两岸四地 中国大陆 香港 澳门 台湾（中华民国多一个蒙古 即便他之前也承认了蒙古国独立）） 互相认为对方的领土属于自己 这就是一个彻头彻尾的未完成的内战 一个被压迫者推翻当权者的故事 我不明白但能够理解你的角度 即便在我看来这种角度很不好 我不希望台湾离开 China 这个China 是一个广义上的整体 就像一个假设的世界观 如果希特勒在对波兰入侵前被推翻 被发起内战 然后希特勒政权流亡东普鲁士 后面即便柏林部分宣布成立一个新国家 假设是德意志民主共和国 虽然在你看来是成立了新国家 但希特勒政权依旧在柯尼斯堡待着 即便过了很多很多年 希特勒政权民主化了 通名从德意志改成普鲁士或者柯尼斯堡了 相信德意志民主共和国的人也不乐意看到他彻彻底底的脱离德意志这个概念
3:20
国家不同 但文字相同 民族相同 习俗相同 结果因为这个事情搞得两边还会有些激进主义者互相仇视 这是一个非常大的遗憾
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:21
这里到底发生了什么
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ccicnce113424
这里到底发生了什么
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:21
鉴证英雄呗
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ccicnce113424
这里到底发生了什么
jeon 2025/10/26 3:22
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💯 2
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乌山白水一过客
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:24
是真的
3:25
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👍 2
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ccicnce113424
Click to see attachment 🖼️
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:25
完 全 胜 利
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Kuyuki Toshira
国家不同 但文字相同 民族相同 习俗相同 结果因为这个事情搞得两边还会有些激进主义者互相仇视 这是一个非常大的遗憾
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:25
顺带一提 现实当中其实有个例子 德国和奥地利 虽说时间会消磨一切 但是处于这个历史遗留问题时期的我 还是不愿意看到这种未来的 并且德国和奥地利是因为有明确的停战协定 或者说双方都不想打了 就觉得算了就这样分家过吧 但如今的PRC-ROC实力并不算得上对等 我当然不希望看到武力冲突 但还是会希望能好好的重新合并回来
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:26
现在是在讨论两岸问题吗
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:27
不只是
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:27
我還在看兩邊誰要先鬆手改憲或兩邊誰先垮台，戰爭就算了我不期望
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:27
但主要是围绕着这个来讲
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:27
可能还涉及一些国际法内容。
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Kuyuki Toshira
顺带一提 现实当中其实有个例子 德国和奥地利 虽说时间会消磨一切 但是处于这个历史遗留问题时期的我 还是不愿意看到这种未来的 并且德国和奥地利是因为有明确的停战协定 或者说双方都不想打了 就觉得算了就这样分家过吧 但如今的PRC-ROC实力并不算得上对等 我当然不希望看到武力冲突 但还是会希望能好好的重新合并回来
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:28
不论什么方式 以及 ROC的存在在我看来最应该做的是扛起中国旗帜监督与督促PRC做的更好 双方互相监督互相进步 但实际上 ROC放弃了 选择了台湾这个名字 当然有迫于中国代表权和一个中国问题的压力 但 不觉得很可惜么 如果ROC的加入能够促使PRC进步 当然也更好 不过在我看来也希望渺茫 我这辈子能不能看到统一恐怕也是问题
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牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:28
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牢大（半退）
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:28
绷。
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牢大（半退）
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:29
huh
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:29
本土认同吗
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ccicnce113424
本土认同吗
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:29
你可以拉上去看看
3:29
建议拉到昨天3点
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:29
可能認為土地是盟軍或自己(台灣島民)的吧🤔 (edited)
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Υδρの昀
我還在看兩邊誰要先鬆手改憲或兩邊誰先垮台，戰爭就算了我不期望
jeon 2025/10/26 3:29
real
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:29
然后看近2000条信息
3:29
就知道为什么开始了
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:29
啊？
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牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:30
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Kuyuki Toshira
但就是因为台湾 或者说中华民国 将台湾作为通名用向全世界 这会导致 或者说已经导致很多台湾年轻人认Taiwan而不认China 即便ROC国名里面依旧有China 这依旧很容易或者已经造成很多人希望或者已经认为台湾独立 并且因此他们不需要再宣布 等 但我必须要指出的是 中华民国和中华人民共和国的宪法内都有整个中国疆域（两岸四地 中国大陆 香港 澳门 台湾（中华民国多一个蒙古 即便他之前也承认了蒙古国独立）） 互相认为对方的领土属于自己 这就是一个彻头彻尾的未完成的内战 一个被压迫者推翻当权者的故事 我不明白但能够理解你的角度 即便在我看来这种角度很不好 我不希望台湾离开 China 这个China 是一个广义上的整体 就像一个假设的世界观 如果希特勒在对波兰入侵前被推翻 被发起内战 然后希特勒政权流亡东普鲁士 后面即便柏林部分宣布成立一个新国家 假设是德意志民主共和国 虽然在你看来是成立了新国家 但希特勒政权依旧在柯尼斯堡待着 即便过了很多很多年 希特勒政权民主化了 通名从德意志改成普鲁士或者柯尼斯堡了 相信德意志民主共和国的人也不乐意看到他彻彻底底的脱离德意志这个概念
milspec 2025/10/26 3:30
I appreciate your long and detailed comment. Let me make some points in response: 1. Even if ROC did not use Taiwan as a common name, it would still be a different country to the PRC - despite them both sharing the same "C". For example Republic of the Congo and Democratic Republic of the Congo are different countries despite both having Congo in the name. 2. I agree that both the ROC and PRC constitutions claim overlapping territories. But this also does not make them one and the same country. Infact, the PRC has overlapping territorial claims with the Phillipines, Vietnam, and Japan, etc. Does that mean that the PRC and Japan are the same country? 3. It started as a civil war, but if ROC and PRC are each countries, then how can it be a civil war still? 4. I appreciate that you don't want Taiwan to separate. But the separation has already occured due to Mao's proclamation in 1949. The divoce is already happened 🥲 . Don't be mad at Taiwan for separating, be mad at Mao for separating mainland from ROC.
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:30
那有没有提取discord消息的东西，我扔给AI总结一下
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ccicnce113424
本土认同吗
乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:30
简而言之就是“中华民国是一个国家，在国际上的通用称呼是台湾；PRC是一个国家，在国际上的通用称呼是中国，所以台湾无需呼吁独立，而是实际上独立了”。 (edited)
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:30
让我读2000条是几乎不可能的事情
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:31
milspec先生前后讲的基本一致，所以总结起来并不困难。 (edited)
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牢大（半退）
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jeon 2025/10/26 3:31
绷
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jeon
绷
牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:32
如果是纳粹德国那就是保定上前线当填线宝宝的准备
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:32
@ccicnce113424 你为什么还有总书记的标签
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:32
其实milspec先生，来自中国的用户们最困惑的很可能是第三点。
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琴海奶油
@ccicnce113424 你为什么还有总书记的标签
乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:32
这是我们民主选举出来的。
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Kuyuki Toshira
不论什么方式 以及 ROC的存在在我看来最应该做的是扛起中国旗帜监督与督促PRC做的更好 双方互相监督互相进步 但实际上 ROC放弃了 选择了台湾这个名字 当然有迫于中国代表权和一个中国问题的压力 但 不觉得很可惜么 如果ROC的加入能够促使PRC进步 当然也更好 不过在我看来也希望渺茫 我这辈子能不能看到统一恐怕也是问题
milspec 2025/10/26 3:32
I think if the PRC became more free and more democratic, then the people on Taiwan would feel more connected. If that happened, then I can imagine a future where the two countries can form a loose alliance (like the EU). Free trade, free movement, and joint defence. Then maybe after 1-2 generations of that, they can talk about unification.
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乌山白水一过客
这是我们民主选举出来的。
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:32
哦对
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Υδρの昀 2025/10/26 3:32
雖然很想繼續看戲，但先睡了，如果睡醒後這裡還這麼熱鬧就好了
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:32
忘记了，选举总书记
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milspec
I think if the PRC became more free and more democratic, then the people on Taiwan would feel more connected. If that happened, then I can imagine a future where the two countries can form a loose alliance (like the EU). Free trade, free movement, and joint defence. Then maybe after 1-2 generations of that, they can talk about unification.
jeon 2025/10/26 3:32
why is this actually a good opinion bro
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Υδρの昀
雖然很想繼續看戲，但先睡了，如果睡醒後這裡還這麼熱鬧就好了
乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:33
晚安。
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Υδρの昀
雖然很想繼續看戲，但先睡了，如果睡醒後這裡還這麼熱鬧就好了
jeon 2025/10/26 3:33
大佬晚安
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牢大（半退） 2025/10/26 3:33
也确实很晚了
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琴海奶油
@ccicnce113424 你为什么还有总书记的标签
ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:33
搞抽象
3:33
实际上没什么用
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:33
金色名字超酷的哎
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:33
只是个很早就被巴西佬打坠机的bot使用者
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:33
唉，我们群的德谟克拉西结晶。
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ccicnce113424
只是个很早就被巴西佬打坠机的bot使用者
乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:33
你的作品被人评论peak了。
3:34
海峡只有两个peak
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:34
what
3:34
什么作品
3:34
在哪
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:34
Image attachment
3:35
不具名，八百万id，老资历了。
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:35
草
3:35
被我注销掉了
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:35
水军是吧。
3:35
emoji_13
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:36
看起来停战了 (edited)
3:36
真热闹啊
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乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:36
他可能也需要暂时休息一下，毕竟写了这么长一段不是。
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:36
927之后就没有这么热闹过了
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乌山白水一过客
他可能也需要暂时休息一下，毕竟写了这么长一段不是。
jeon 2025/10/26 3:37
这是怎么回事
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jeon
这是怎么回事
乌山白水一过客 2025/10/26 3:38
他在前面发了总结。
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milspec
I appreciate your long and detailed comment. Let me make some points in response: 1. Even if ROC did not use Taiwan as a common name, it would still be a different country to the PRC - despite them both sharing the same "C". For example Republic of the Congo and Democratic Republic of the Congo are different countries despite both having Congo in the name. 2. I agree that both the ROC and PRC constitutions claim overlapping territories. But this also does not make them one and the same country. Infact, the PRC has overlapping territorial claims with the Phillipines, Vietnam, and Japan, etc. Does that mean that the PRC and Japan are the same country? 3. It started as a civil war, but if ROC and PRC are each countries, then how can it be a civil war still? 4. I appreciate that you don't want Taiwan to separate. But the separation has already occured due to Mao's proclamation in 1949. The divoce is already happened 🥲 . Don't be mad at Taiwan for separating, be mad at Mao for separating mainland from ROC.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:40
我主要回复你的二 三 四点吧 你的第一点从客观上来说没啥问题 第二点 你见过有近乎完全重合的国家么 第三点 Mao宣布建国时 大陆地区依旧有相当大一部分的ROC控制区域 而PRC依旧在对ROC发起进攻 直到在大陆地区看不到ROC的身影 以及 在后续 至少可能要到70-90年代终止 ROC依旧在对PRC进行间谍活动 包括但不限于撒传单 飞机偷拍 等军事行为 现在相同是事情PRC对ROC也在做 比如军机绕台湾岛军演等 并且在50-70年代 蒋介石依旧在积极备战尝试反攻大陆，他从大陆撤退时带了将近60-80万人到台湾 第四点 Mao做的只不过是顺势而为 蒋介石政权在整个中国不得人心 在台湾也一样 比如二二八事变等 实际上就是中华民国被全国抛弃了 在台湾也一样 只是被蒋介石武力镇压了 你可以了解一下白色恐怖 以及 如果没有美国干涉 中华民国会被彻底推翻 台湾和大陆会属于同一个国家 当然我不管他叫什么就是了
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琴海奶油
如果是against politics我认为画一个可爱维尼然后旁边画一个跳跳虎就可以表达，而不是引起别人反感
ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:43
习近平与小熊维尼的强关联，就在于他和奥巴马并排走的图片与小熊维尼和跳跳虎的图片对比的表情包被封
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milspec
I think if the PRC became more free and more democratic, then the people on Taiwan would feel more connected. If that happened, then I can imagine a future where the two countries can form a loose alliance (like the EU). Free trade, free movement, and joint defence. Then maybe after 1-2 generations of that, they can talk about unification.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:44
这已经是很理想的状态了 现在随着两边分歧越来越大 最后的结局可能是武力统一 也就是彻底消灭中华民国 中华民国彻底进入历史的一部分 大陆这边已经是了 台湾还没有 但我估计台独势力再闹个一代人两代人 说不定也自己把中华民国扫进历史宣布建立独立的国家 不过这样做只会彻底惹恼大陆当局就是了
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ccicnce113424
习近平与小熊维尼的强关联，就在于他和奥巴马并排走的图片与小熊维尼和跳跳虎的图片对比的表情包被封
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:44
是这样的
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 3:44
唉我草要四点了
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:44
晚安哥们
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milspec
I think if the PRC became more free and more democratic, then the people on Taiwan would feel more connected. If that happened, then I can imagine a future where the two countries can form a loose alliance (like the EU). Free trade, free movement, and joint defence. Then maybe after 1-2 generations of that, they can talk about unification.
ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 3:46
像马英九的主张
3:46
但是现在已经没有那个历史条件了
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Kuyuki Toshira
我主要回复你的二 三 四点吧 你的第一点从客观上来说没啥问题 第二点 你见过有近乎完全重合的国家么 第三点 Mao宣布建国时 大陆地区依旧有相当大一部分的ROC控制区域 而PRC依旧在对ROC发起进攻 直到在大陆地区看不到ROC的身影 以及 在后续 至少可能要到70-90年代终止 ROC依旧在对PRC进行间谍活动 包括但不限于撒传单 飞机偷拍 等军事行为 现在相同是事情PRC对ROC也在做 比如军机绕台湾岛军演等 并且在50-70年代 蒋介石依旧在积极备战尝试反攻大陆，他从大陆撤退时带了将近60-80万人到台湾 第四点 Mao做的只不过是顺势而为 蒋介石政权在整个中国不得人心 在台湾也一样 比如二二八事变等 实际上就是中华民国被全国抛弃了 在台湾也一样 只是被蒋介石武力镇压了 你可以了解一下白色恐怖 以及 如果没有美国干涉 中华民国会被彻底推翻 台湾和大陆会属于同一个国家 当然我不管他叫什么就是了
milspec 2025/10/26 3:51
2. DPRK and ROK claim completely overlapping territories. Germany in 1949 (FRG vs GDR). North Yemen vs South Yemen in 1960s. International law doesn't have a threshold of claim above which you are now considered the same country, below which you are different countries. 3. Okay, I agree, but this doesn't contradict my position. The two sides continued to harass and attack each other after the PRC was created, I agree. 4. Mao made a stupid move. If he didn't create a new country, but rather renamed the old country, or rather created a new government for the old country, he would still have claim over Taiwan. But really, Mao didn't really care about Taiwan at the time and he made a silly legal move. I agree that Chiang was unpopular on both sides of the strait - but this doesn't change my arguement.
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琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:53
并不认同4
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Kuyuki Toshira
这已经是很理想的状态了 现在随着两边分歧越来越大 最后的结局可能是武力统一 也就是彻底消灭中华民国 中华民国彻底进入历史的一部分 大陆这边已经是了 台湾还没有 但我估计台独势力再闹个一代人两代人 说不定也自己把中华民国扫进历史宣布建立独立的国家 不过这样做只会彻底惹恼大陆当局就是了
milspec 2025/10/26 3:53
Both sides are separating more and more because the CCP is becoming more and more authoritarian and dictator like.
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Hom1s 2025/10/26 3:53
这么水深火热的吗讨论到现在
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Hom1s
这么水深火热的吗讨论到现在
琴海奶油 2025/10/26 3:53
是这样的
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:00
第四点其实发生过
4:00
汪精卫南京国民政府
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milspec
2. DPRK and ROK claim completely overlapping territories. Germany in 1949 (FRG vs GDR). North Yemen vs South Yemen in 1960s. International law doesn't have a threshold of claim above which you are now considered the same country, below which you are different countries. 3. Okay, I agree, but this doesn't contradict my position. The two sides continued to harass and attack each other after the PRC was created, I agree. 4. Mao made a stupid move. If he didn't create a new country, but rather renamed the old country, or rather created a new government for the old country, he would still have claim over Taiwan. But really, Mao didn't really care about Taiwan at the time and he made a silly legal move. I agree that Chiang was unpopular on both sides of the strait - but this doesn't change my arguement.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:00
2.这就牵扯到一国两府和两国论的关系了，从你的角度 的确是两个国家 我也不愿继续讨论 但是如果从PRC和ROC的角度来看就很有意思了 双方都不承认对方 都认为自己是中国唯一合法政权 双方对于对方的和自己的称呼在实际上还是 ROC：大陆地区 台湾地区 PRC：中国大陆 中国台湾 我的一国两府观点是建立在两边政府的观点上 他们都不得不承认两岸实际上是一个中国（当然这个中国是PRC还是ROC 他们都不能说 这也就是 一个中国 各自表述 因为双方共同点只剩下中国了） 至于现在 民进党在ROC执政了将近十年多了 所以才会做出喊PRC中国 喊自己台湾的蠢事 国民党的话还是大陆地区台湾地区的喊 4.毛不在意是因为他和大多数人都认为他们能一鼓作气彻底将中华民国扫进历史 但现实就是这么有戏剧性 没有办法的事情
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ccicnce113424
汪精卫南京国民政府
ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:01
日本的一个傀儡政权
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Kuyuki Toshira
2.这就牵扯到一国两府和两国论的关系了，从你的角度 的确是两个国家 我也不愿继续讨论 但是如果从PRC和ROC的角度来看就很有意思了 双方都不承认对方 都认为自己是中国唯一合法政权 双方对于对方的和自己的称呼在实际上还是 ROC：大陆地区 台湾地区 PRC：中国大陆 中国台湾 我的一国两府观点是建立在两边政府的观点上 他们都不得不承认两岸实际上是一个中国（当然这个中国是PRC还是ROC 他们都不能说 这也就是 一个中国 各自表述 因为双方共同点只剩下中国了） 至于现在 民进党在ROC执政了将近十年多了 所以才会做出喊PRC中国 喊自己台湾的蠢事 国民党的话还是大陆地区台湾地区的喊 4.毛不在意是因为他和大多数人都认为他们能一鼓作气彻底将中华民国扫进历史 但现实就是这么有戏剧性 没有办法的事情
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:01
并且民进党实际操作下一直在想办法把中华民国（或者说台湾 他们爱喊台湾或者中华民国台湾）脱离中国这个范畴 所以现在就扯不清楚了
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:02
自称仍然是中华民国
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milspec
Both sides are separating more and more because the CCP is becoming more and more authoritarian and dictator like.
WHK 2025/10/26 4:02
The DPP also brainwashed Taiwanese people to give up their Chinese identity.At the same time, through populist authoritarian means, KMT and the TPP were suppressed by DPP
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milspec
Both sides are separating more and more because the CCP is becoming more and more authoritarian and dictator like.
WHK 2025/10/26 4:02
The DPP also has a great responsibility. You can go and find out what the DPP has done in Taiwan.
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:03
可以大致介绍一下现在的情况吗
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ccicnce113424
可以大致介绍一下现在的情况吗
WHK 2025/10/26 4:03
什么
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:03
现在，这几天在讨论什么
4:04
简单让我明白现状就好
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WHK 2025/10/26 4:05
就是这个澳洲佬一直认为中国和台湾完全是两个国家，他搞不清楚中国的“一中各表”，认为一切应该按照国际法的行事 (edited)
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:07
我个人对于两岸现状实际的观点是，双方实际上处于“一中各表”状态
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:07
I know that the mainland narrative is to blame the DPP for "brainwashing" the Taiwanese people. However in a democracy it is the other way around - the people choose the DPP because the DPP reflects what they are already feeling. Lets have a look at some evidence. This graph is from 1992 to 2025. Do you know when the DPP was first elected? In 2000. Find 2000 on the graph - you can see that the trend of increasing Taiwanese identity started well before DPP was in power.
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Kuyuki Toshira
2.这就牵扯到一国两府和两国论的关系了，从你的角度 的确是两个国家 我也不愿继续讨论 但是如果从PRC和ROC的角度来看就很有意思了 双方都不承认对方 都认为自己是中国唯一合法政权 双方对于对方的和自己的称呼在实际上还是 ROC：大陆地区 台湾地区 PRC：中国大陆 中国台湾 我的一国两府观点是建立在两边政府的观点上 他们都不得不承认两岸实际上是一个中国（当然这个中国是PRC还是ROC 他们都不能说 这也就是 一个中国 各自表述 因为双方共同点只剩下中国了） 至于现在 民进党在ROC执政了将近十年多了 所以才会做出喊PRC中国 喊自己台湾的蠢事 国民党的话还是大陆地区台湾地区的喊 4.毛不在意是因为他和大多数人都认为他们能一鼓作气彻底将中华民国扫进历史 但现实就是这么有戏剧性 没有办法的事情
milspec 2025/10/26 4:08
Consider the possibility that both Chiang and Mao were wrong about "One China"? Do you have kids? Sometimes when my kids fight, both of them are wrong.
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:09
本土认同兴起
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:09
yeah
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milspec
I know that the mainland narrative is to blame the DPP for "brainwashing" the Taiwanese people. However in a democracy it is the other way around - the people choose the DPP because the DPP reflects what they are already feeling. Lets have a look at some evidence. This graph is from 1992 to 2025. Do you know when the DPP was first elected? In 2000. Find 2000 on the graph - you can see that the trend of increasing Taiwanese identity started well before DPP was in power.
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:10
你说得对但是民进党实打实的主动关停了国家统一委员会 删除了相当一部分中小学教材例如历史中关于中国的内容
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milspec
I know that the mainland narrative is to blame the DPP for "brainwashing" the Taiwanese people. However in a democracy it is the other way around - the people choose the DPP because the DPP reflects what they are already feeling. Lets have a look at some evidence. This graph is from 1992 to 2025. Do you know when the DPP was first elected? In 2000. Find 2000 on the graph - you can see that the trend of increasing Taiwanese identity started well before DPP was in power.
WHK 2025/10/26 4:12
This is precisely the result of the Democratic Progressive Party's (DPP) brainwashing. They revised textbooks to weaken Taiwanese people's sense of Chinese identity. They start with young children, altering their worldview to make them believe they are not Chinese (ROC) but rather Taiwanese with a local identity. As these people grow up, they naturally support the DPP, strengthening their Taiwanese identity, which further facilitates the DPP's governance and its next steps. This creates a cycle: the DPP brainwashes Taiwanese people → Taiwanese people do not identify as Chinese → Taiwanese people support the DPP → the DPP gains higher approval ratings → the DPP continues to govern and brainwash Taiwanese people...
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:12
我对洗脑一类的词不感兴趣 我也不在乎认同问题 台湾是中华民国下的一个省 我只对两者都是（both Taiwanese and Chinese）持续走低感到悲哀
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:13
See here - the fastest growing period of Taiwanese national identity is during KMT rule hahaha
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:13
就像我是中国江西省人一样 我认同我是Jiangxiese 我也认同我是中国人
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milspec
See here - the fastest growing period of Taiwanese national identity is during KMT rule hahaha
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:15
国民党第二次当选没有恢复国家统一委员会 也没有把课本改回来 他们那次统治摇摇欲坠并且期限内还有太阳花学运这种占领立法院的事件发生 说白了 国民党 烂 不再有勇气 干不好任何事 在立法院（国会）也是唯唯诺诺的怂逼 (edited)
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WHK
This is precisely the result of the Democratic Progressive Party's (DPP) brainwashing. They revised textbooks to weaken Taiwanese people's sense of Chinese identity. They start with young children, altering their worldview to make them believe they are not Chinese (ROC) but rather Taiwanese with a local identity. As these people grow up, they naturally support the DPP, strengthening their Taiwanese identity, which further facilitates the DPP's governance and its next steps. This creates a cycle: the DPP brainwashes Taiwanese people → Taiwanese people do not identify as Chinese → Taiwanese people support the DPP → the DPP gains higher approval ratings → the DPP continues to govern and brainwash Taiwanese people...
milspec 2025/10/26 4:15
Again, my graph proves that you are mixing up cause and effect. What came first was the Taiwanese identity. That lead to the DDP being elected for the first time in 2000. The trend started long before DPP
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milspec
See here - the fastest growing period of Taiwanese national identity is during KMT rule hahaha
WHK 2025/10/26 4:15
This is the poisonous legacy left by the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which became evident during the Kuomintang (KMT) rule. (You can look into the Sunflower Movement against the Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement, which occurred during the KMT period but was driven by the DPP’s ideological wave of Taiwan independence.)
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:16
If it is all the fault of the DPP, then how do you explain polling data between 92-00 (before DPP came to power)
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:16
我讨厌国民党这幅当选后几乎啥都不敢干延续上届政府的样子 真的很烂 从蒋经国死后 国民党就不再是那个中国的国民党了
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:17
Because in a democracy the KMT cannot make unpopular decisions.
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milspec
If it is all the fault of the DPP, then how do you explain polling data between 92-00 (before DPP came to power)
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:17
92-00 台湾已经解严 李登辉纵容民进党干任何事情
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milspec
Again, my graph proves that you are mixing up cause and effect. What came first was the Taiwanese identity. That lead to the DDP being elected for the first time in 2000. The trend started long before DPP
WHK 2025/10/26 4:18
Before the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) came to power, it had already been spreading localist consciousness in Taiwanese society. This consciousness led to a weakened sense of Chinese identity among Taiwanese people, ultimately facilitating the DPP’s rise to power.
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:18
再一个 台湾认同问题还有一点 就是很重要的 中国代表权问题
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:18
In a democracy it is the people that changes the government. In a dictatorship, it is the government that changes the people.
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:18
PRC不容忍ROC以China的名义活动
4:18
在我看来这完完全全是一个糊涂账 基于此将台湾人推向了反对中国的那一面
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Kuyuki Toshira
92-00 台湾已经解严 李登辉纵容民进党干任何事情
milspec 2025/10/26 4:18
? You're blaming Lee?
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milspec
? You're blaming Lee?
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:19
翻译问题么 稍等
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Kuyuki Toshira
PRC不容忍ROC以China的名义活动
milspec 2025/10/26 4:19
true
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WHK 2025/10/26 4:20
Although Lee Teng-hui was a member of the Kuomintang (KMT), his actions were entirely in support of Taiwan independence, and he promoted Taiwan independence consciousness and the growth of the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP).
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Kuyuki Toshira
我讨厌国民党这幅当选后几乎啥都不敢干延续上届政府的样子 真的很烂 从蒋经国死后 国民党就不再是那个中国的国民党了
milspec 2025/10/26 4:20
KMT has changed from being anti-CCP to being pro-CCP
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milspec
KMT has changed from being anti-CCP to being pro-CCP
WHK 2025/10/26 4:21
Because they couldn't stand the DPP's behavior in Taiwan and the persecution of other political parties (edited)
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:21
我感觉，WHK不认为台当局的统治是合法的，认为台湾并不是一个民主的地区，是吗？ (edited)
4:22
所以将本土认同的增长解释为当局的洗脑
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ccicnce113424
我感觉，WHK不认为台当局的统治是合法的，认为台湾并不是一个民主的地区，是吗？ (edited)
WHK 2025/10/26 4:22
我是一中各表 台湾确实比大陆民主，但是民进党靠的是一种民粹式独裁，称不上有多清白
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WHK
Although Lee Teng-hui was a member of the Kuomintang (KMT), his actions were entirely in support of Taiwan independence, and he promoted Taiwan independence consciousness and the growth of the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP).
milspec 2025/10/26 4:22
yeah but Lee was the first democratically elected president. So if people chose him and he was supportive of Taiwan independence, then the people must already be supportive of those ideas before he was elected.
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milspec
yeah but Lee was the first democratically elected president. So if people chose him and he was supportive of Taiwan independence, then the people must already be supportive of those ideas before he was elected.
WHK 2025/10/26 4:23
Lee Teng-hui was actually the successor appointed by Chiang Ching-kuo, and that election was just a cover
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:23
李登輝說：在實行「政黨政治」情况下，國民黨這樣的一個大黨要有胸襟，要給民進黨一些「奶水」，讓民進黨能够長大。這樣，「中華民國」的「政黨政治」才能發展。 在这个时候恰巧碰到台湾经济在解严后腾飞 以及PRC打压ROC的情景 台湾人的身份认同开始变得混沌 也开始变得越来越希望独立 很简单 PRC坚持一个中国政策 认台北就别认北京 反过来也一样 还有比如说中华航空的涂装上有中华民国国旗 PRC通过对别的国家航空公司施压让中华航空改涂装了 在这样一个大背景下 台湾人独立意识不抬头才奇怪 换我我也难受
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ccicnce113424
所以将本土认同的增长解释为当局的洗脑
WHK 2025/10/26 4:24
我当然知道本土意识的觉醒是正常的， 我只是讨厌把所有的问题都归结到大陆这边
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:25
不如说，那段时间最接近一国两制
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milspec
KMT has changed from being anti-CCP to being pro-CCP
Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:25
台湾的民主其实并没有那么民主 国民党民进党 选举口号好听 上台后当缩头乌龟 国民党的大转变在我看来单纯是因为还想要选票 以及国民党内部也不是铁板一块 民进党也一样 上台后该务实还是务实 之前延续的政策能不改就不改 该咋样咋样 国民党第二次执政不敢谈统一 民进党第二次执政不敢谈独立 老百姓没办法 就这俩能选 后面出了个台湾民众党 党主席现在又被赖清德政府抓了 赖清德政府发动大罢免想罢免敌对政党的立法委员/市长 来改变他的政府在议会不占多数的现状 以及蔡英文政府成立不正党产清算委员会查封国民党资产 赖清德政府直接以国家安全为理由查封并且搜查国民党各地党部 台湾实际也没你想的那么美好和民主 (edited)
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:25
当时大陆甚至允许台湾保留军队
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WHK
Lee Teng-hui was actually the successor appointed by Chiang Ching-kuo, and that election was just a cover
milspec 2025/10/26 4:25
He was appointed as successor - internal KMT perogative, but he was also later democratically elected.
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:32
The KMT and DPP actually have a lot of overlap and the differences are pretty small. That's because they're very tuned to listening to what the people want. However, if you want the option of choosing more extreme policies (both extreme unification or extreme independence) Taiwan has a lot of political parties to choose from. Then you will have your opinion represented.
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ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:37
关于台湾的政党是否能够倾听民意，只有台湾人民才有资格评价。中共没有，我们也没有
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Kuyuki Toshira
台湾的民主其实并没有那么民主 国民党民进党 选举口号好听 上台后当缩头乌龟 国民党的大转变在我看来单纯是因为还想要选票 以及国民党内部也不是铁板一块 民进党也一样 上台后该务实还是务实 之前延续的政策能不改就不改 该咋样咋样 国民党第二次执政不敢谈统一 民进党第二次执政不敢谈独立 老百姓没办法 就这俩能选 后面出了个台湾民众党 党主席现在又被赖清德政府抓了 赖清德政府发动大罢免想罢免敌对政党的立法委员/市长 来改变他的政府在议会不占多数的现状 以及蔡英文政府成立不正党产清算委员会查封国民党资产 赖清德政府直接以国家安全为理由查封并且搜查国民党各地党部 台湾实际也没你想的那么美好和民主 (edited)
ccicnce113424 2025/10/26 4:38
我赞同举事实而不是强调立场
4:38
但这样的政治现状也比大陆好了太多
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Kuyuki Toshira 2025/10/26 4:46
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Kuyuki Toshira
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milspec 2025/10/26 4:48
Good night!
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